read the whole Book II and the allegory of cave in Book VII
text available at http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html
Journals due on Feb. 23
guidance questions:
1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
3. What's the requirement of guardians in the proposed city?
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Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
ReplyDeleteOne of the main goods Glaukon mention was harmless pleasures + enjoyment which delight us at the time although nothing follows from them. The second one was knowledge, sight, health which are desirable not only in themselves but also for the resorts. The last one stated gymnastics, the care of sick ,the physician’s arts and also the various ways of making money.
According to Socrates, justice is placed in the highest class which is knowledge, sight, health which is desirable not only in themselves but also for the resorts.
Can god deceive mankind in anyway?
I find this to be an interesting question posed in the text. In my humble opinion, we cannot say whether god can deceive mankind because we have yet to witness god in a physical form. And because we have not seen god in a physical form we cannot determine whether he is deceptive or not. Most people believe god to be a spirit form. If that is true can a sprit really deceive mankind? If the answer is yes how can it be proved? In other words, is this based on factual evidence or is it all apocryphal. For example, in the text, Socrates and Adeimantos speak of Zeus as being the dispenser of good and evil. How can we know that Zeus exist since he is not a physical form. All we have seen is images of Zeus and other mythical Greek gods.
Kennee McFadden
Jonathan Hicks
ReplyDeleteJustice belongs to the things that we choose to have for our own sake and for the sake of their consequences which makes us feel good.This is the one out of the three kinds of good that justice belongs.Adeimantos saw a problem in poet's and religion in the statement"God is the cause of only good." He didn't think that it was right for poet's to speak about religion such as, God punishing people. It's contradicting if "God is the cause of only good."He wanted Socrates to prove that justice is universal which excludes anyones opinion about the consequences.The guardians must be philosophers and love learning,as well as healthy.
Socrates tries to pursuade Glaucon that to be just is always better than unjust, but what Glaucon is eager to know is, what justice and injustice are in themselves and how they inwardly work for humans. Justice to man may not be good or bad, but of a necessity. Glaucon points out three classes of "good"
ReplyDeletea.)There are things we desire for its consequences, such as body training and medical surgery, and justice
B.)The things we desire only for its own sake such as joy or happiness.
C.)The things we desire such as knowlege, our senses, and good health but only for the benefits we recieve from them.
Justice goes into category A. Humans rather obtain justice rather than be without it because without justice humans will be damned. Justice stems from human weakness and the suseptibility of man.
Glaucon and Adiementus raises the social contract theory of justice and the fact that justice can offer rewards. Justice is desire by nature, man wants justice, but with that come injustice,justice is practice at its own sake as it is pointed out in The Republic book II. Man wants to obtain justice out of fear and weakness.
Kunti Hanif
ReplyDeleteAccording to Glaucaon there are three kinds of goods which are; goods which causes harmless pleasures and enjoyment although nothing follows from them, goods such as knowledge; which is good for the results and lastly the good which no one chooses for their own sake but also for its results. Since all good is virtue; I think that justice does not apply to one but all three kinds of goods.
Adeimantus felt that poets and religion bear a like testimony. They put forth the wrong idea of what justice and unjustice is. Adeimantus wanted Socrates to prove what true justice is and the superiority which justice has over unjustice.
In trying to examine and explain what Adeimantus wanted to know, Socrates reflected on the creation of a state. He mantioned that guardians would be required to protect and defend the state. Guardians of the proposed state must be capable for guarding the city. They are required to have universal knowledge and wisdom, spirit, swiftness and strength.
Plato: republic Book II
ReplyDelete1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
Socrates and Glaukon were having a conversation when Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good. The first class was harmless pleasures, and enjoyments. The second class was knowledge, sight and health. And the third class was gymnastic, care of the sick, the physician's art, and different ways of making money. Glaukon asked socrates in which class of things he would place justice. Socrates responded by saying that justice is in the most beautiful class of all, the class of things that you choose for sake and for the sake of their consequences. I have to agree with what socrates said. I believe that what ever class you choose for yourself and your life that should be the class that justice belongs to. For me, i would choose the second class which is knowledge, sight and health. I believe that if you have the power of knowledge, sight and a good health you can do anything. I also believe that if have the power of knowledge, sight, and good health you can eventually access things in the first class (harmless pleasures, and enjoyments) and the third class (gymnastic, care of the sick, the physician's art, and different ways of making money).
SHEILA LOPEZ
the requirement of the guardians in the proposed city which is called the healthy city. to determine what true justice is, Socrates build an imaginary city which stated that everyone in this city should come together and provide for one and other. the city is consist of farmer, a carpenter, a weaver and a craftsman, where everyone preform their own skills. the city will also need a guardian because of the expansion which will cause war amounts neighbor, the guardians must have a good knowledge, and people who love knowledge are philosophers. therefore they must be nature fast,strong, and a spirited philosopher.they should develop the right balance between gentleness and toughness, they must be well educated,just like the soul and the body, for eg- plato compare the soul to a sheep which is constantly grazing, if you place a sheep in a poisoned grass they eventually consume it and eventually sicken and die.so we ask is the education of the guardians is so important, does education determine weather the soul is sick or healthy. we all need education but to what extend.
ReplyDeleteGaneshwari Latchman
Anitra smith
ReplyDeletethree main points Glaukon said was 1,harmless pleasures,enjoyment which fullfills us in the time being but doesnt help for real life.
2,knowledge, sight, health which helps in knowing,vision and benifits in long life
3,gymnastics, the care of sick ,the physician’s arts and also the various ways of making money.
Adeimantus found that being a poet came with great story telling of mankind(the fault of telling a lie, which is more a bad lie)
religion:we can say that we have seen god because we didnt people or their religion say that god is a sprit and he has created mankind and we dont know that for sure, its also like who the bible, they only thing we can do is believe or wait and see. for me im very religious and i follow the ten commandments and live my life the right way.believeing god is a choice and i feel that he is alive in all of us.
In Socrates and Glaucon conversation, Glaucon mentions three kinds of good. First, he mentions harmless pleasures and enjoyments that delight us at time, but there is nothing to follow in this category. Second, mentions knowledge, sight, and health something that is not only desirable but also have many results. Third, he mentions gymnastic, care of sick, physicians art, and various way of making money which Socrates regard them as disagreeable. According to Socrates justice belong to those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results. I believe that justice belongs to harmless pleasures and enjoyments because when justice is done it gives me a pleasure and joy to see that whatever the wrong doing was it was punished by justice. For example, when a person cheats on a test and the professor catches the person at this people should celebrate because this is a wrong doing that should be punished no matter who you are. Likewise, there is no harm in celebrating this act because the person who cheated deserves to be punished, so he can learn a valuable lesson that will teach him not to do the same act again. Therefore, justice should be something that when punished people should feel a harmless pleasure and enjoyment that will allow them to have a little fairness in their lives.
ReplyDeleteIn book II of The Republic, nobody is still satisfied with the discussion of justice. Glaucon ( Socrates companion) mentions 3 kinds of goods:
ReplyDelete1. things we desire for their consequences like body training and medical surgery.
2.things we desire for their sake like joy and happiness.
3. Things we desire because of the benefits they bring us and their sake like, knowledge health and our senses.
In book II Adeimantus wants Socrates to prove what true justice is, and that justice is better than injustice.
Glaucon gives the example of the ring of Gyges. If a man had a ring that made him invisible, would he be just or unjust? He states that he would be unjust because nobody is watching him or is there to judge him.
Then Glaucon ends his story with the point that people are only just, because they do not want to be punished for being unjust.
Later, Socrates states that justice is the type of good that one chooses to do because of their sake and because of its consequence.He gives the example of the guardians that are required to protect a state and that for them to do that, they are required to have knowledge, wisdom and strnght, which are goods that for him are in the same category as justice.
The three kinds of goods that were spoken upon were harmless pleasures and enjoyment. The latter is knowledge, sight, and health . Finally the third is gymnastics, the care of the sick, the physician’s arts, and also the various ways of making money. In my opinion knowledge, sight, and health are the most important. This is because no matter what you may posse in life, without your health nothing else matter; your knowledge or other tangible worldly possessions. Without knowledge you can be told anything, and will more than likely believe anything conforming to society’s beliefs just as many do now today.
ReplyDeleteIn book II just as book I Socrates is being asked to prove what justice is. Adeimantus wants Socrates to prove what justice is, and why justice is more useful than injustice. Adeimantus felt that when it came religion poets displays the wrong idea of what justice and unjustice is. Also that it was wrong for poet's to speak about God punishing others because God is for the cause injust and not unjust things.
Glaucon mentioned three kinds of good, first and foremost things we desire only for their consequences such as physical training and medical treatment, secondly things we desire only for their own sake such as joy and finally things we desire both for their own sake and for what we get from them such as knowledge sight and health. Glaucon wanted Socrates to prove if justice is not only desirable, but rather belongs to the highest class of desirable things which is those desired both for their own sake and their consequences.
ReplyDeleteGlaucon using the example of Gyges the ancestor of Croesus the Lydian asks us to imagine that a just man is given a ring which makes him invisible. Once in possession of this ring, the man can act unjustly with no fear of getting retaliation. I agree to Glaucon’s claims that even the most just man would behave unjustly if he had this ring. He would indulge all of his materialistic, power-hungry, and erotically lustful urges. This tale proves that people are only just because they are afraid of punishment for injustice. I think no one is just because justice is desirable in itself.
Glacan spoke to Socrates about three different kinds of good. There is the type of good that is just for the here and now. It brings pleasure and enjoyment but has no real lasting effects. Another good is knowlegde. Knowlegde is good for the affect it can have of the results. Finally he talked about different ways that you could make money by, for example taking care of the sickly.
ReplyDeleteAdeimantus asks Socrates to prove the superiority of justice over injustice. He wants him to prove that justice is a universal concept. He wants him to prove how living a just life can lead to better results. The problem that Adeimantus had with the way poets told their tales about justice was that they told stories about God punishing people. He mentioned a story about how Zeus stood against his father and thought that things like that should not be told to the young because it might put negative ideas into their minds.
Guardians in the city have to be able to carry on in their tasks. Each one of them should have a task that they excel in. Their own "art". They must also want to learn.
Having been deep into the discussion of justice, Glaucon and his brother, Adeimantus, enter the fray in attempting to summarize and define the meaning of justice.
ReplyDeleteGlaucon breaks the definition down into three parts:
things that are desired for their worth, such as medical treatment and physical training; things that we desire only for our own good, such as happiness; and, the highest class, things we desire both for the good of the deed and for the reward, such as health and knowledge.
Adeimantus later breaks into the argument saying that we do not practice justice for the good of man, but for the reward it brings in both the living world and the after world.
1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
ReplyDeleteThe three goods he mentioned were things we desired that provided outcomes like medical procedures and professions. Things we desire for itself like pleasure and happiness. Things we desired to know or learn like knowledge, vision and health. Knowledge is placed in the good of knowledge.
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
Adeimanto's problem with poems and religion was that these stories depicted Zeus punishing people and going against his father. These can pass on bad morals to children. he wanted Socrates to prove why justice ultimately better than injustice.
"Glaucon argues that justice is merely what is lawful, and that laws have been developed by men with the aim of reducing the injustice each suffers at the hands of his fellow men."
ReplyDeleteI find this circular and am dismayed that Socrates combats it on the grounds of human nature and not logic. If justice is what is lawful, laws are required for justice. But he states that laws are made to eliminate injustice, however, injustice requires justice, which does not exist prior to the installment of laws, at least in this scenario.
"He believes that he has stumbled on the origins of war. Since the land of his growing city will be insufficient for the number of people now living in it, he believes his city will attack that of his neighbors. This is a reasonable conjecture, but it seems to narrow. Socrates own Athens entered in on an expedition to Syracuse without any real need for land. Instead, Alcibiades, a student of Socrates, plainly argues that the war will bring glory to Athens."
Socrates thinks he has found the origin of war, not the cause of all wars. Some civic success would seem to be required before a state can seek its own glory. I don't think you would suggest barbarian sackings of cities would be for their own glory. People would seek to ground themselves before trying to elevate themselves, and they may consider war to be necessary in either case.
"Socrates engages in a somewhat lengthy aside on the gods. First, we are not to accredit bad things to the gods, but only good things. Second, gods do not change, because any change would be a degradation, and no one would willingly make himself worse. Third, the gods would never deign to use falsehood. "Then is God perfectly simple and true both in word and deed; he changes not; he deceives not, either by sign or word, by dream or waking vision.""
Maybe Platonists and Thomists aren't so different after all.
the requirement of guardians in the proposed city,which is also called the healthy state.the guardians are there to determine what true justice and injustice really is.the city include farmers,merchants,skilful sailors and carpenters.where everyone preform they own work and have knowledge and skill in their field of work.the guardians will need to have knowledge and wisdom to deal with problems of the growing city.also the guardians must be brave enough to fight invaders and to help fight off enemies.the guardians must have knowledge to do good and also have the quailites of a good philosopher.socrates stated a good and noble guardian of the state will require to unite in himself philosophy and spirit and swiftness and also strength.does this make the guardians smarter than everyone else i think not.
ReplyDelete1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
ReplyDeleteGlaukon mentioned 3 kinds of good but the one that refers to justice is the second good. He asks Socrates is there not also a second class of goods, such as knowledge, sight, health, which are desirable not only in themselves, but also for their results? Because the second class of good relates to yourself and how the tings that you do will effect others, that is to me the balance of justices.
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
The problem the Adeimantos has with poems and religions is that the poems talk about the gods as fair and just. That piety is important to them but the religious side of it is the gods doesn't always do what is just and fair. They judge according to how they feel.
3. What's the requirement of guardians in the proposed city
Each guardian is responsible for their own destiny. They have learn their craft and perfect the craft. If their desire is the harp, they must master it and take ownership of it.
According to Glaukon, there are three kinds of good, to which does justice belong to. Firstly, is Glaukon mentioned the good was associated with harmless pleasures. It is enjoyment of things that make us content at the time, even if nothing follows from them. Secondly, the justice in good is the factors of knowledge, senses, and health. There are desirable not only in themselves but also for the resorts. Thirdly, justice in good relates to gymnastics, the care for the sick, the physician’s trade and also the various lucrative ways to make money. Socrates states that justice is revered to be the highest class of people: knowledge, senses, health which are truly sought out and desired and not only in literal context, but also in retrospect.
ReplyDeleteJustice belongs to the righteous; to those who seek the attributes of justice will be rewarded. Socrates believes that justice is the type of good that one chooses, for the sake of and because of what it reaps. It shows that by example, of the guardians who are required to protect a state and because it must be possible for them to do that: they are required to have knowledge, wisdom and senses. They are the justice in good.
David Larosiliere
Reading this text I came across a point that was made about the arts of men which I found interesting. When speaking about the expansion of a city because of the different jobs that have to be done the point was made about having to go to war for new territory. Since there are no soldiers, then everyone who is not a soldier would have to go to war for their city to expand. The point was made that people are best at their art when that is the only art in which they perform, because if they were responsible for many different arts then their performance in each of those arts would suffer. War is an art and it seems as if this art cannot be avoided if the city wants to expand, and with the lack of soldiers people would have to take up this art and every other art would suffer. Would the production of the city suffer, because of a simple act of war? Since the production would be lacking would the city therefore crumble? The act of war for expansion is unjust because the people would suffer from it.
ReplyDeleteLuis Mercedes
Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
ReplyDeleteAdeimanto found that the stories and tales told in poems and religion ultimately affects the minds of children and youth. He strongly believes telling these stories must supervised and controlled. The stories which the children should hear must be presented as the good in the world rather than the evil. If not so the children will end up following the misdeeds.
Furthermore these children will become the "guardians" in modern terms our future, it is impairative that education is very important. This is in also of the interest of the city-state itself rather than the whole society. So there must be two education for the city and the individual. I found this in conflict with one another. Because the interest of the individual may not be in the interest of the city. If one was set to have interest in other than his job or profession, it will cause conflict with the city producing.
BOOK II
ReplyDeleteIn this passage Glaukon brings up some very important arguements pertaining to good and which justices belongs, which are broken down into classes. He starts out by explaining that goods are welcome with open arms just for sake and the consequence we receive from them doing having them, his example being "harmless pleasures and enjoyments", they make us happy for the particular momment with no expectations beyond that point. The next example he labeled as class of goods was "such as knowledge, sight, health", could be the earn to obtain these curtain quailies that everybody wants but to cherish and also use them wisely. The last class good he believes also is for belongs for justice is "such as gymnastic, and the care of the sick, and the physician's art; also the various ways of money-making". To take care of one another medically to stay healthy and inshape which can lead to rewards such as a payment.
Adeimantos found in poems and religion both portray a wrong way of justice and injustice because the they both see it in a different eyes since gods see them as what they like and poems show the way the have occured. Adeimantos wants Socrates to prove that why justice can be more useful than injustice.
The requirement of guardians in the proposed city was to be is to make sure what just and injust is clear to the people of the city. So they must have abolute knowledge and wisdom to take the part. Everyone must have a particular skill and everyone must help one another.
Syron Singh
Something that really interests me is the way Glaucon uses justice as a tool that we measure what should and not be done to us. To say that everyone has felt the affects of both and everyone agrees that within injustice there is more suffering. So people have established justice as a way of protecting ourselves from injustice.
ReplyDeleteMaking injustice seem like a necessary evil so we know of the necessity of justice. Glaucon goes even further saying there are 3 classes of good being your physical being, your health, and/or wealth. Justice belonging to the highest within the three.
This is all really intriguing to me because the three goods seem closely related to the declaration of independence and it makes me wonder if Thomas Jefferson maybe had read the Republic? or even if it was around?
-Kaven Kim
Glaukon mentioned 3 goods, one was enjoyment which gives us happiness at the time but in the end there is no substance, the other is knowledge, health and sight, which are desired by everyone. The third was caring of sick, the many different ways of making money.Socrates placed justice in the highest class, knowledge.. health. We cant really answer the question about god deceiving mankind, why? because not all of us believe in the same god, therefore we each would want to think highly of what we praise and believe in, or else we would be looking foolish. As to my own opinion, i believe god will not deceive, but rather test mankind through various forms..so to others it may seem like god is deceiving.
ReplyDeleteHe mentions that guardians must develop the right balance between gentleness and toughness. not be thugs, wimps, or useless, they must all be carefully selected. They should be spirited, honor loving, philosophical, or knowledge loving, and physically strong and fast. They must develop physical training for the body, and music/poetry for the soul. Education development of the guardians is the most important aspect of the city, It is a process of purification through which the bad state of the city can be purified.